By Leif Hansen
Video: Brian McLaren's Attack Against Hell and Jesus Atonement
McLaren: This is, one of the huge
problems is the traditional understanding of
hell. Because if the cross is in line with
Jesus’ teaching then—I won’t say, the only,
and I certainly won’t say even the
primary—but a primary meaning of the cross
is that the kingdom of God doesn’t come like
the kingdoms of the this world, by
inflicting violence and coercing people. But
that the kingdom of God comes through
suffering and willing, voluntary sacrifice.
But in an ironic way, the doctrine of hell
basically says, no, that that’s not really
true. That in the end, God gets His way
through coercion and violence and
intimidation and domination, just like every
other kingdom does. The cross isn’t the
center then. The cross is almost a
distraction and false advertising for God.
Leif Hansen: Oh, Brian, that was just so
beautifully said. I was tempted to get on my
soap box there and you know—Because as you
and I know there are so many illustrations
and examples that you could give that show
why the tradition view of hell completely
falls in the face of—It’s just antithetical
to the cross. But the way you put it there,
I love that. It’s false advertising. And
here, Jesus is saying, turn the other cheek.
Love your enemy. Forgive seven times
seventy. Return violence with
self-sacrificial love. But if we believe the
traditional view of hell, it’s like, well,
do that for a short amount of time. Because
eventually, God’s going to get them.
McLaren: Yeah. And I heard one well-known
Christian leader, who—I won’t mention his
name, just to protect his reputation, cause
some people would use this against him. But
I heard him say it like this: The
traditional understanding says that God asks
of us something that God is incapable of
Himself. God asks us to forgive people. But
God is incapable of forgiving. God can’t
forgive unless He punishes somebody in place
of the person He was going to forgive. God
doesn’t say to you—Forgive your wife, and
then go kick the dog to vent your anger. God
asks you to actually forgive
And there’s a certain sense that, a common
understanding of the atonement presents a
God who is incapable of forgiving -- unless
He kicks somebody else.
Hansen: Now, is that going to be—You know, I
remember one of our emails, I had asked if
you were going to bring that up in The Last
Word, and it looks like you—as far as an
alternative view of the cross, had got a
little bit. My hunch is, I am wondering, is
your new book about Jesus going to get into
that alternative view of the cross? Or, I
might say, an earlier historical view of the
cross?
McLaren: Well, yes. It does. But not through
sort of direct attack. The book is called
The Secret Message of Jesus and it’s about
the message of the kingdom. I really
like—Marcus Borg and John Dominic are you
know, crossing, have a new book coming out
called The Last Week. And it follows the
week of what we call passion week, or holy
week. It is really a great book. And you
know, evangelicals tend to think that
they’re the only people who take the Bible
seriously. I am so impressed with how
seriously these guys take the Gospel of
Mark, really the last week of Jesus. It's
really stunning. But one of the things they
point out is that Mel Gibson’s film, you
know, called the crucifixion, the passion of
the Christ. But Jesus’ passion, the thing He
was most passionate about was the kingdom.
And the message of the kingdom is what I
really try to explore in this book.
And that’s why, if we look at the cross as
something that becomes almost the ultimate
demonstration or the ultimate exclamation
point about the message of the kingdom, it
looks very different than if we throw the
message of the kingdom away or make the
message of the kingdom about something in
the future and marginalize it for Jesus’
whole life. Boy, everything looks different.
Hansen: Now, I agree with you and I am
starting to come to an understanding of the
cross. And I have a hunch that it’s probably
pretty similar to your understanding of the
cross and the kingdom. But one of the places
we might differ—I don’t even want to say
that because I am just really exploring
right now—is, weren’t there people before
Jesus and since Jesus, some inspired by Him,
some Christian, some martyrs, and wasn’t
God, in a sense, demonstrating self
sacrificial love since the beginning of
time? Since God created beings other than
Himself? So, I guess the reason I ask that
question is two-fold. One, it has to do with
this question of world religions and
Christian exclusivism. Some might say, well
yes, we also believe that at the heart and
center of God and of reality is
self-sacrificial love. But we don’t think
that Jesus was the only one to teach about
that and to demonstrate that in His life.
Now, a more—what’s the word to use?—a more
conservative Christian, whatever—someone who
believes in the literal ontological divinity
of Christ would have an argument and say,
well yes, but this was, this was more
central because it was actually God,
literally, demonstrating that kind of love.
However, someone, a more liberal Christian,
who might think that Jesus was perfectly
imaging God’s love, or totally inspired by
God’s love but not literally God—To be
honest, that’s the direction I am leaning
more myself these days. We would have a hard
time saying what makes Jesus’ life and
example and living love to the death more
unique than any other.
McLaren: Right. If I understand what you’re
saying. These are important subjects. I
understand you’re saying: Look, we could
look at Ghandi’s live as an example of self
sacrificial love or Martin Luther King
Junior’s life. There would be a lot of
people we could look at. And so wouldn’t it
be better to just talk about Jesus as one
among many, rather than lift Him up as some
extraordinary example. Because by doing that
we create, we perpetuate this Christian
elitism and exclusivism, et cetera, et
cetera. Is that what you’re saying?
Hansen: Bingo! Yeah, that’s really right on.
McLaren: Well, this is a subject that I am
really interested in. And in fact, it’s
going to be part of the book I am going to
write this year that is, kind of will be
sequel to this book of The Kingdom Seeker
Messages of Jesus [NOT SURE IF THAT’S WHAT
HE SAID] And it’s tentatively, right now,
going to be titled Jesus and the Suicide
Machine. And what’s it’s going to be is
talking about how the message of the kingdom
speaks to our contemporary situations. And
to cut to the chase, I think what you’re
reacting to is not, ultimately, the
uniqueness of Jesus, but it is how the
uniqueness of Jesus is used by a colonial,
Roman Christianity.
Hansen: I definitely am reacting to that on
an emotional level. But on an intellectual
level, I guess, I am also saying that there
are some questions that got brought up when
I was studying. You know, ranging from if we
do say this, how can we not be elitist?
Versus, you know—to be honest with you, one
of the biggest stumbling blocks to me is
Jesus’ being in a literal sense the Son of
God, was finding out that Paul never once
mentions the idea. And his writings are the
earliest. And when I found that out, I was
like—wait a second here.
McLaren: See, I think I can feel your pain,
Leif. And part of what I feel is this: There
is a whole package. And the package
ultimately is this hell package. And here’s
what I would say: I think the deeper problem
here is a problem of the larger narrative.
And when I think there’s another way of
seeing the narrative where a lot of these
problems disappear. In other words, I would
say, I think we see the right problems in
the narrative. But I think there are
different understandings of the narrative
that are very, very hard to get to. Because
we’ve got so much of the old narrative so
deeply rooted and so deeply influencing the
way we read the Bible. And I feel like I can
say this. I think I’ve got to a little rise
on the journey, where I got a different view
of the landscape. And I want to tell you, I
think it’s going to be okay.
Hansen: Very hopeful.
McLaren: But in the meantime, I don’t think
I can—I struggle. I’ve been struggling with
this for, you know, fifteen years. I’ve
really been struggling with this stuff. And
so I feel like, piece by piece you get a
different vision. But you can’t rush it. And
the other narrative is so deeply ingrained.
So, but one of the questions I could raise
that might be helpful for you and other
people thinking about this, is to say, what
is the problem with sin? What’s so bad about
sin? Now, I can just imagine some people
quoting—See, McLaren doesn’t think sin is a
problem. I take sin really, seriously. But
here’s the problem, If I were to make this
sort of analogy or parable. When I had
little children, if one of my little
children—Let’s say my son Brett, was beating
up on his little brother, Trevor. Now,
Trevor is bigger. But back then—What was the
problem? Was the problem that I don’t want
my younger son to get hurt and I don’t want
my older son to be a bully. I want my older
son to be a good person. I want my younger
son to be a good person. I want them to have
a great relationship. Then the problem of
sin is what it does to my family and what it
does to my boys, you know. That’s the
problem with sin.
But what we’ve created is, the problem of
sin is that I am so angry at my son Brett
for beating up his younger brother, I’m
going to kill him. So now the problem we’ve
got to solve is how to keep me from killing
my son. Does that make sense?
Hansen: Yeah. It’s like a step back. Yeah,
the reaction.
McLaren: And so now it seems to me the
entire Christian theology has shifted so now
the problem is, how can we keep me from
killing Brett? And I don’t think that’s the
kind of God that we serve. I think the
problem is God wants His children to get
along with each other. He wants them to be
good people. Because He’s good. And His
vision for creation is that they’ll love
each other and be good to each other and
enjoy each other and have a lot of fun
together.
So sin is incredibly serious. But I think we
have shifted why it’s so important. Can I
say it one more way to say the same thing
is—The problem is, why does sin matter to
God? And I think what has happened is
through the influence of Ansolm and maybe
not even really Ansolm, but the way Ansolm
was interpreted by later people—We have a
vision that the real problem is God wants to
kill us all. And we’ve got to somehow solve
that problem. And what that does to me,
Leif, that is so significant, is that it
then minimizes the concern about injustice
between human beings. That becomes a
peripheral concern. But what if that’s God’s
real concern, from beginning to end, see?
And by the way, that kind of theology, it
just wants to placate God. And again, I know
I am over stating it and I am aware
everything I say now, that I have these
people who are listening to me looking to
find fault and so, anything I say—And I
don’t care. If they misquote me on this to
some degree, because at least maybe they’ll
think about it. But I think that that
theology was the perfect theology to
enfranchise apartheid, colonialism,
segregation in the United States. It
enfranchises carelessness toward the poor,
disregard for the rights of homosexuals,
carelessness toward people with AIDS. It
shifts all the attention from God’s will
being done on earth to what happens to us
after we die. And I think that is the kind
of thing that would make God furious, if I
could use that kind of language. And I think
that is exactly why Jesus uses such strong
language toward the Pharisees.
Hansen: I agree with you. I don’t want to
get into it. I still kind of wish there was
some way that He could have used—Cause it
seems to be like, don’t be violent because,
you know, God’s going to get you sometime.
It just sort of—Anyway, I hear you. What I
am hearing you say is that this original
message of reconciliation, of hey guys, God
is no longer mad at you, God forgives you.
We need to get back to the original focus of
caring for each other and for this planet
and social justice issues. Somehow—well, not
just somehow—You and I would agree, it seems
to come from this idea of the fear and
misunderstanding of sin and how God responds
to it in getting us focussed on the
afterlife. And it’s just gotten completely
turned upside down. I hear you.
McLaren: And if the other guys are right,
then you and I are wrong. But if we’re even
partially right, the other guys have some
thinking to do.
Hansen: Well, can I just do a couple of
personal questions? Probably more myself. I
don’t know how many of my listeners are in
this similar place. But—or how many people
you’ve talked to are, if you talk to mostly
people who have no problem calling
themselves Christians and feel God’s
presence and all, but I am honest with you.
I am in an incredibly dry—Particularly I was
involved with a charismatic church, a
Vineyard. I loved it. And I still actually
hold that those experiences were largely
valid and good. There’s a lot of poop in the
middle of it all, humanity. But that’s okay.
That’s always going to happen. But right
now, I don’t think it’s intellectual. I
think that large enough through my thinking,
and school and your writings, there sort of
just this emerging view of how I can
reembrace my faith on an intellectual level.
There’s still a few little struggles. But
there always will be. On an emotional level
though, I am just really struggling trusting
even God exists at all. And I can’t mental
talk myself into that, I don’t think. I
think I said this to you in the letter. I
think part of it is I’m scared—Things have
changed so many times. I’m scared that if I
start saying a believe certain things and
trusting and standing on things, I’m going
to be humbled again and let down and
disappointed. Do you know other people
struggling? Do you have any other advice for
those of us in that place of how to rebuild
a really basic trust again?
McLaren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, I
think your honesty about that will resonant
to an awful lot of people who listen to
this. Because I just heard a very well known
pastor—again, I won’t out him on this. But a
very well known pastor said exactly the same
thing recently. He said, You know, half the
Mondays I get up and I just think, I’m not
sure I believe anything that I preached
yesterday. I’m not sure I believe any of
this. But he just said his struggle it keeps
coming back again and again and again. So,
you know, this is a terrible problem. It is
especially a problem for reflective people.
I don’t know if you’ve heard this song by
Jill Philips. She has a song called “God
believes in You.” And there is some line in
the song that goes something like: On those
days when you don’t believe in yourself, God
believes in you. And there’s a certain sense
that reflective people, we’re capable of
disbelieving anything, including ourselves,
you know. So, part of this I think, for
those of us who are highly reflective—and if
you don’t know this, Leif, you are one of
the most highly reflective of the highly
reflective. You know, I think it is hard,
probably it is one of the curses and
blessings of your, of the kind of
personality that you are. And I think I have
this too. Is that we’re capable of doubting
and disbelieving all kinds of things.
Now, the question is, how do people like
us—what does it mean for us to have faith?
And I’ll tell you another great book that
will be so worth reading when it comes out.
It’s by a young Irish theologian. And
imagine being an Irish theologian in these
last twenty or thirty years, where you’ve
seen religion used—not just religion but
Christianity used in some of its ugliest
ways. Anyway this book is called, “How Not
to Speak of God.” And it is so—I found that
book so helpful. In fact, I was asked to
write a foreword for the book and I just was
completely gushing about the book. And I
thought nobody is going to believe I’m
this—They are just going to think I am
marketing the thing. But I really am
enthusiastic. Anyhow, Pete Rolands is the
author. He is part of a community in Belfast
called Icon. And I think you and other
people will find that book helpful when it
comes out. But one of the things that I love
about that book is that I think it correctly
identifies so much of the problem as the way
we speak of God. And if we allow ourselves
to realize that God is always—the God who
would really exist has to always be greater
than the language that we use in speaking
about God. It gives us permission to doubt
the way we speak about God as an act of
faith in saying that the real God would have
to be better than the way we speak about
God. Cause that’s the kind of thing that the
mystics always were saying.
That, that God always must be greater than
however we speak about God. Right? I think
XXX Eichardt who said, God saved me from
God. In other words, the God who really
exists must be better than the concept of
God that I have. And so, I have to
continually call on the God who is greater
than my best concept of God.
Gregory MisXXX, who wrote at time when there
was so much debate about the trinity and
people were ready to kill each other about
this. And obviously he was involved in those
debates himself. But he said, Only wonder
understands; concepts create idols. And for
someone like yourself and like me and so
many of us who have grown up in evangelical
contexts, where we argue about God in ways
that would make you think that we have great
confidence in our words to capture God that
we’re ready to pillory somebody who doesn’t
use words just the same way we do. You know,
I think we are especially prone to this
idolatry of ideology and idolatry of words.
And I think there is a certain sense that
our atheism is a desire to disbelieve the
words we keep saying about God because we
know that God has to be better than those
words.
Hansen: I think that resonates in me. What,
okay, well, if you need to go beyond words
then, what kind of experiences have you had
Brian, that have given you the hope to
continue on? I mean it’s got to be
experiences or practices or living social
justice out. What is that that has helped
you and can help us to go beyond the words
and to have that?
McLaren: First of all, I need to say that it
is so—I hesitate to say anything because—I
know that I have another phone call coming
in a couple minutes that I assured somebody
I would take. So, I feel like that in itself
should be a three day conversation. But I
can say this: I have gone through periods,
two intense periods in my life that you
might call a dark side of the soul. Where
God just didn’t seem real to me at all. And
so I know what that’s like. One of those
periods lasted about three years. And I did
everything I could to bring it to an end and
it finally came to an end and it had nothing
to do—you know what I’m saying? I didn’t
think I could last six months and it went on
for three years. And so I know what it’s
like to feel that God doesn’t exist. And the
feeling relates to—You know, you can’t tell
whether your thoughts come first or your
feelings come first. So, I feel that.
I also need to say that for other periods of
my life, the feeling of God’s reality has
been so strong and so there. And I know
other people who say I have never felt that
once. And I don’t think I am superior to
anybody. I just think, you know, I don’t
know. I don’t know how to explain it. But I
was just reading a book by Barbara Brown
Taylor, a new manuscript of a book she has
coming out that will be called Leaving
Church. And a really wonderfully written
book. And she describes kind of her primal
sense of the experience of God. And the way
she said it is, the sense that I am being
carried by invisible arms. And another way I
would say it is the sense of being
accompanied somehow.
Hansen: And you have that right now?
McLaren: Yeah, I do. But and I almost
hesitate to say it. Because I know for
people who don’t that it can either say, oh
that’s just some psychological thing. Well,
I’m sure it is psychological. You know, I’m
sure it has to do with brain waves and
everything else. All experience does. But
there comes some point where I just have to
acknowledge, this is a true part of my
experience. But so are those Monday mornings
when I have woken up and felt that God—where
I didn’t have that feeling and where all of
those intellectual questions are there. So,
I just feel like part of being a person of
God is also experiencing a sense of
abandonment by God. And what I am hearing
from you is that you have had times when you
felt these powerful experiences of God and
other times when where you XX. And I guess I
identify.
One of my good friends, when I went through
the first of these long, dry periods, I
remember he and I were sitting across the
room from each other on two couches. And I
just go honest with him and I said, I don’t
believe any of it right now. None of it
seems real. And he just looked at me and he
said, I know it doesn’t seem real to you
right now. I want to tell you, it does seem
real to me. And he said, maybe you need to
go on my faith for a while. And I just
remember feeling such a relief to be able to
be honest about the experience and not have
any pressure to have it be fixed. And to
have him stay somewhat not anxious in the
middle of it. And that’s what I just wish
I—That’s what I wish I could offer to people
who are going through those times right now.
Hansen: You do offer that and you have. And
I am able to lean, at least somewhat on your
faith there. Sounds like your call is coming
through. Brian, thank you so much for taking
this time…
McLaren: This is one of the great
experiences that when you get to travel—You
know, we all see so much garbage and the
garbage is so promoted. And the stupidest
things get the most attention. But you know,
like I was just in a little village, two
afternoons ago, way up in the mountains of
Dominican Republic, where a Pentecostal
pastor of a little tiny church in this
little village of 4,000 people was so
bothered that nobody in the whole village
had health care, that he has created a
health care system for these poor people who
have an annual, average per capita income of
$50 per person per year. That’s their
average income per year. And he has created
an unbelievable thing. And you know, you see
something like and you just are very moved.
…
